Whitecross: Hammer & Nail

David Roberts: go. Hi, this is David Roberts of White Cross, lead singer.

rex: And this is Rex Carroll lead guitar player from White Cross. You are listening to the Rock N Metal Faith podcast. Crank it hard, crank it heavy, crank it all day long.

Kris plamondon: I wanted to ask you Rex, with that out, the Hammer and Nail album, you have a song called Living on the Edge. I don't know if you've ever heard of X-Sinner single!

Arin Hancock: Yeah, they had a song too. He was just talking about the similarity in titles.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, they also have a single cod

Rex: the album from them that I liked was the one they did that John and Dino produced. Remember they had their original singer?

Arin Hancock: Yeah, I'm trying to remember now.

Kris plamondon: for X-Sinner

Rex: But that was the album that I had and I liked that album a lot. I really liked the sound of it because it was it was smooth and It was packaged really well and I loved the sound of that singer. Then they got Rex Scott and I'm not familiar with any of their music with Rex Scott. So. Yeah.

Kris plamondon: okay. Well, no, I was just commenting because you both have the same song. That's all. So I thought maybe they took it from you and...

Rex: Yeah. Moving on the edge. we both stole it from Aerosmith, right?

Arin Hancock: ⁓ There you go. Sounds like

Kris plamondon: Hahaha

Arin Hancock: actually a good segue and I'll introduce the second record now. Welcome back to the Rock and Metal Faith podcast. It's all about

Kris plamondon: Welcome.

Arin Hancock: the classic Christian rock, the new as well as the classics. I am your host, Arin Hancock, my cohost Kris Plamondon. And we're joined

Kris plamondon: How's it going?

Arin Hancock: once again with Rex Carroll of White Cross. We're continuing our White Cross album series. ⁓ and we get to talk to the artist himself as we talk about Hammer and Nail. How you doing, Rex?

Rex: Yeah. Ouch. That hurt.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, don't hurt yourself doing that, man.

Arin Hancock: That's beautiful, man. I actually remember back in the day when you guys were on tour and this would have been little later tours. Maybe did it back

Rex: Yeah.

Arin Hancock: for Hammer Nail 2. I'm not sure, but you would do these guitar clinics before the show there. You'd go around to record stores and do these guitar clinics. I attended one those one time and it was really cool to see you play.

Rex: Cool. Yeah.

Kris plamondon: I'm so glad Christian guitarists don't pick up their guitars.

Arin Hancock: That's because they don't have the budget for it.

Kris plamondon: I'm glad Christian guitarists don't pick up their guitars and destroy it anymore.

Arin Hancock: That's because they don't have the budget for it.

Kris plamondon: I'm glad Christian guitarists don't pick up their

Rex: What? No, can't afford to destroy a guitar.

Arin Hancock: Yeah, you don't have the budget for that.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, that's right.

Rex: I saw Kiss in 1977 and they got to the end of the show and Paul Stanley's playing on this, know, he's playing on his, what is this, Ibanez destroyer guitar. The really nice one. And then at the end of the show, he took a really cheap Gibson guitar, like a little $150 guitar. And he smashed that for the crown. But

Kris plamondon: Ha ha.

Rex: he never played it. He never. He just took his brand

Kris plamondon: He never came back.

Rex: new guitar for like. Yeah, yeah, but Ace was cool, you know, when he like when he like explode his guitar, he starts start smoking and. And then it blew up, that was so cool.

Kris plamondon: So Rex, where were you when you guys did Tooth and Nail?

Arin Hancock: Hammer nail, he's talking about.

Kris plamondon: yeah, dude. Yeah, hammer and nail, sorry.

Rex: Hammer in the Nail. Tooth to the Nail, that's a docking album. Which I bought

Kris plamondon: I was close.

Rex: and I loved it and I'm a fan of George Lynch, I love that band. I was due to a lot of people. Anyways, the Hammer in the Nail, well... I graduated out of my studio apartment and my wife and I, bought a 70 foot long single wide mobile home. Brand new in a mobile home park and it was just the coolest thing ever. We had our little trailer home and had a little handy hut, little eight by eight. hut out in the yard, in the front yard. I had a little lawn mower and I'd time it. It took me 11 minutes to cut the grass.

Arin Hancock: wow.

Kris plamondon: How long have you and your wife been married, Rex?

Rex: a long time, many years, many,

Kris plamondon: Okay.

Rex: years. And...

Kris plamondon: Awesome.

Rex: We started doing a lot of merch. So we had a Chevy van, a, it was a half ton or a three quarter ton van. And we had a trailer that had all of our gear in there. And so we had a lot of merch. I remember, so in the mobile home, the arrangement is you walk in, most trailers are similar to this. You walk in the front door in the middle. You have a living room and a kitchen area. And then at one end you'll have a bedroom and at the other, at the opposite end, you'll have a bedroom. But it was just the two of us. So the opposite end of the room, that was the music room. So I had, I'd be back there. I'd have a half stack Marshall amp, know, four by 12 pound and my 50 watt had GCM 800 head. And it had the volume just barely crank over ⁓ one. And it was too loud in the part. But I'm trying to figure out, how do they get those guitar sounds ⁓ on the Ratt albums and the Dokken albums and all that? And just trying to emulate that sound with ⁓ an amp that's barely even turned on. was like, well, it doesn't quite work like that. ⁓ But anyways. ⁓ That's what it was. And then we started getting a lot of a lot of t-shirts because we were selling a lot of t-shirts back then. And one time, got all these boxes from Ram graphics, full of shirts much similar to the one that you're wearing. I had like, you know, like 500 shirts in that back music room and the whole place just smelled of ink. You're like, we're getting...

Arin Hancock: you

Kris plamondon: get it out.

Rex: like getting knocked out by the ink smell. then in the summertime, I would go and I'd stand out in the front yard there because I would take my guitar and I would practice where you

Arin Hancock: Okay, right

Rex: throw the guitar and it whips around. the guitar is a 360. So I'd go out in the front yard and then practice doing that. So you said, were you at that time?

Kris plamondon: Hahaha!

Arin Hancock: You

Rex: I'm standing outside the front yard of my mobile home because we made it, you know, in life. then, know, practicing, I call them wingdings, you know, I practice the wingdings with the guitar.

Arin Hancock: Did you ever have the strap come off while you were that?

Rex: Yep. Never, never,

Kris plamondon: Hehehehe

Rex: never in my practice we went on a tour in Canada. We had a very long tour. like an eight week tour. We started in Toronto and then we were gonna go all the way west, work our way down California and then work our way all the way back. And first night. I got to the end of first song. Okay, I've been practicing my wing being like all summer long. Here we go. And I did it and the strap broke. Right then and

Arin Hancock: you

Rex: I had a wireless unit on the guitar. So the cable on the wireless goes like this and it attaches to the strap. That little cable held the guitar together and held it from so the guitar didn't crash on the floor. But it, you know, I this $800 wireless and it broke the wireless and never worked after that.

Arin Hancock: man.

Kris plamondon: That's when your roadie runs out and...

Arin Hancock: well. So back to hap-

Rex: So. That was the first night of the tour and so I had to finish the rest of the tour on a cable.

Arin Hancock: So back to hammer and nail.

Rex: Hammer and Nail

Arin Hancock: Yeah. Did you use the same producer as the debut?

Rex: No, well. So the first album, has Caesar Kalinowski's listed as a producer. I don't remember if my name is listed or not. I think probably not. But it was very much, Caesar might've had his name on the album, but it was very much a collaboration in two of us. Now on the second album, I think... from second album, third album was myself as the producer, I think. But we had a great engineer, guy named Doug Overkerker, he's a fabulous engineer and it was a big, sonically corrected a lot of things in the first album, probably over-corrected some things. then when we did our third album, a lot of people have said to me, yeah, from that area, ⁓ Their favorite album is sonically is the Triumphant return album which was our third album ⁓

Arin Hancock: Yeah, I'd probably agree with that too. It had a different sound.

Rex: They had a combination of songs that they liked along with like really good production values.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, definitely sounds better, more open.

Rex: But the second album was really fun too. It was good. Hammer in the Nail. It a good album. Had some good fun.

Arin Hancock: Did you have the songs for that one all written ready to go when you went in to record or any writing in the studio?

Rex: Yeah, mean songwriting is something that just kind of happens all the time. I could... See this? This is your best tool for songwriting. So I go in here, open it up, find this little app called VoiceRecord Pro. Free app, everybody should have this. These are all of my ideas that I've turned into songs and or have not been turned into songs. this little app called VoiceRecord Pro, know, people say, I can do this on my phone, but this looks a little bit more, to me, this is a little bit more organized for laying down, know, so you just hit record and boom, play your guitar and talk into it and, you know, say what your idea is. And then I go back every so many months and I scroll through my ideas and I go, here's one. I like this one. Let's work on this one.

Arin Hancock: right well back in the day of hammer and nail

Rex: And that's why I keep track of what it is. Because you never know, you never know, you know what sucks is when you're all settled down for the night and you're just climbing into bed. then I hear, you know, I just think this would work. Yeah, this sounds good. This would work. And I'm oh, nuts. Then you have to get up and you have to go down and you have to record it.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, yeah. I've had that happen too.

Rex: You gotta get up again and go record because if you think, I'll remember it in the morning, no you won't. It'll be long gone. You

Arin Hancock: No, no, no, no. I don't remember stuff. write stuff down or record or record it myself.

Kris plamondon: No, you won't, you won't. No.

Rex: gotta lay it down right when you're thinking of it. Because it's always a common

Arin Hancock: Now you gotta remember, too, HammerName was before the iPad.

Rex: chord, something about the chord and then the rhythm pattern that goes with it.

Arin Hancock: Yes, definitely. you got to know, Hammer Name was before the iPad, so how did you record your ideas then? Just,

Rex: cassette tapes.

Arin Hancock: there you go, yeah.

Rex: Yeah, and so I loved a cassette tape because it was a really fast way. Boom, pop in a tape, hit record and play into the tape. But where it's a problem is you stack up six or seven ideas. You don't know where you are on the cassette tape. And then you got to like scroll through previous ideas and find the right spot. Then, you know, 10 minutes go by and you've lost the idea.

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Rex: So that would happen too. And that's why I love this, you know, one thing I do love about the digital stuff like with the iPad is you can capture it. And then when it's done, you know, you can give it a name and it's organized by the date of the recording. So everything is laid out in chronological order. It's brilliant. Plus I had a four track cassette recorder.

Arin Hancock: Right? Yeah, I had one that was back in the day too. think, yeah,

Rex: You want me to dash scan?

Kris plamondon: Yeah, yeah, I had those too.

Arin Hancock: think, no, mine was I think a FosTech or something like that.

Rex: FosTex, had Taskam would always come out with something and then FosTex would like, okay, we'll make the same thing only cheaper because there's remittance.

Arin Hancock: Yeah, I played around with recording and just out of high school had some song ideas and recorded it and done that.

Rex: Yeah. Yeah, so that's what it I had that Tascam four-track tape recorder, and that's what I used to develop my... You know, I'd start out with an idea. I'd like quickly record it onto a cassette tape, and then I'd learn it, and I'd build it out, you know, like program a little drum machine to sort of lay out the parts, you know, put that on the four-track, and then add a guitar and a bass and, you know, a vocal part. and that would be the outline of the song.

Arin Hancock: So with you, you did more with producing on Hammer Nail? Is that what you said? Yeah.

Rex: Yeah, I think. If I'm wrong, I could go look at it. Maybe you could look up Wikipedia real quick and find out. I think I produced the whole thing.

Arin Hancock: I can do that, yeah. can probably read it easier on my phone. Like said, I've got the original cassette. I'd have to look up and I don't know if I can read the print on that anymore.

Rex: Yeah.

Arin Hancock: But so with the, what's it say then? So with you doing the producing, were you happier with the sound that came out compared to the debut?

Rex: happier.

Arin Hancock: Yeah.

Kris plamondon: Happy year.

Rex: You know, again, well, I'll tell you this. First record I made, first hard album for Atlantic and Kris Lord Algy was the engineer and the producer. And I asked him a technical question. I was like, just looking at all the gear in the rack, I pointed at an SPX90 effects processor and said, what's this? He said, it's an SPX90. And I'm like, yeah, okay, thanks. Well, what does it do? He said, well, you turn it on and it works. And he used a couple of additional more colorful language. In other words, you don't have any standing to talk to me about technical things and it's not my job to talk technical with you. So I'm not going to. So no information there. You know, working with Doug Oberkircher, I had just like a thousand questions. So we're going through the studio, he's miking up the drum kit. Okay, what is this mic and why are you using it? This is the AKG 440-41 and I like it because it does this and does this and I'm like filling up notebooks, full of info. And Doug was like, he was a fountain of information and he shared freely. So I loved working with Doug. And plus he's a good engineer and it was an upgrade, a much upgraded studio. The only thing I didn't like was that studio was on the third floor of a building and there was no elevator. So we're walking, you know, Marshall stacks going up the stairs. And then at the end, know, we're marching them down the stairs. And so we had to do all that.

Arin Hancock: Definitely got your work out doing that. Yeah, I just looked it up on the corner of Wikipedia here. It's got you

Rex: Mm-hmm.

Arin Hancock: as producer with Gavin Morkill and Joey Powers.

Rex: Yes, Gavin Markle was, he was our manager. He became our manager at that point. And he was, he was the guy that I told you in that previous story at the label. He was vice president at Pure Metal. And Gavin wanted to sign us. And, and the other guy at the label said, well, I'll let you, I'll let you sign your little rock band because you didn't care about Rainy now. didn't care. So Gavin was the executive producer. I was the producer and then Joey Powers, he owned the studio that we recorded at. And Joey was great. He was older guy and he was a mentor to me and very intimidating guy. goes, Rex, I want to see you in my office. Like, oh no, what did I do? know, what did somebody say something? Did we break some gear or something? Oh no, what's wrong? What's wrong? You know, I'm thinking through all the things in my head. I go in there in his office and goes, I don't know what you're doing, but people love this and I love it too. And then, you

Arin Hancock: you

Kris plamondon: Ha ha ha.

Rex: he's, I'm like, phew. Yeah, so it's okay. So then he would start, you know, he'd talking to me and it's telling me, you know, he told me all about his life as because he had been an entertainer. He was a crooner in the 50s and the 60s. He was a singer. He had a couple minor hits on the radio and then he got the studio and he owned the studio business. He told me all about the business and he told me so many things about, know, this is the way the music business works and just taught me a lot about life and God bless Joey. ⁓ Great, great guy. ⁓ So yeah, ⁓ I think, and I think that was the same arrangement on the Triumphant Return album as well.

Arin Hancock: Okay, same producers in the studio.

Rex: Yeah, I was producing, Gavin was executive producer and the function a producer is hands on control of the session. You know, is any disagreement well, I'm ready to play my bass track now. Well, we need to work on this drum sound some more. Okay, well, the producer will decide. The producer job, my job is to deliver the album from start to finish. So I have a schedule, I have an agenda. It's kind of like the film director. I have a series of shots that I need to get done today and I have to use the daylight accordingly, right? Same thing. between now and this time to deliver the album on time and on budget without going over budget. So I was great. I love that. I love managing a project like that. The executive producer just kind of keeps an eye on the budget, basically. And he kind of keeps tabs on the producer, but kind of hands off like, Rex, you know, how did it go today? How are we looking for tomorrow? How does the next week look? Yeah, I'm planning on this, this and that. And so he would, he would know if, you know, if I, if I would be all of a sudden, well, I'm stuck on this thing, you know, like two days later, I'm still stuck on this one thing. Okay, there's problems. So then he would have to. You know, don't make me have to come in there. You know, because they're mostly on the phone, know, just keeping tabs on everything.

Arin Hancock: Step in when he has to type of thing.

Kris plamondon: Right, he was. Problem solver.

Rex: You know, and I had to sign off on a daily time sheet where, you know, we kept records of everything that we did every day. So that way we were, you know, that's a proper recording session. Man, and I miss those days too. That was the greatest of times. Because now there's no budget, there's no time limit, it's just me working at home. I can work

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Rex: on stuff tonight if I want to, and I probably will. Well, if I don't feel like it, I don't have to do it. I can do it tomorrow. It's super easy when you have your own studio. It's super easy not to get anything done.

Arin Hancock: Yeah. Yeah, I think.

Rex: So that's a thing too. It's good for me to have a project and to sort of to have a deadline because when I have a deadline then it's like, okay, now I got to get busy and I got to do this, this, this and that in order to get it done on time. So that's a good thing.

Arin Hancock: Definitely, yeah, yeah.

Kris plamondon: So.

Arin Hancock: You always need ⁓ something to work towards, essentially. got a question?

Kris plamondon: So when you went into, you decided, okay, we're gonna do an album. Where were you guys at at that time? Like, was there a goal, how you wanted it to sound? Or was it just, let's see what we can do.

Rex: both like let's see what we can do and well I want it to sound like I want you know Eddie's guitar sound and I want the vocals to sound amazing like Boston and I want and I want it to sell like you know Peter Frampton

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Rex: you know I don't know and I want and I want to cover photo to make us to make us look pretty and glamorous like Stryper but that was never gonna happen,

Kris plamondon: You

Arin Hancock: You

Rex: right? You know, we looked like, you know, like ⁓ Rock

Arin Hancock: Yeah, instead the cover just came.

Rex: and Roll Angels, you know, they mixed up a stew and they created Stryper and then they took, you know, they looked beautiful and glamorous and then they took all the leftover bits and they said, well, what can you make out of these leftovers? Well, not very much, but we can sort of cobble

Arin Hancock: you

Rex: together this little group here and that would be White Cross. That was our visual image.

Kris plamondon: You know, you and Kim

Arin Hancock: I thought you can talk

Kris plamondon: just

Arin Hancock: about

Rex: That was our visual image.

Kris plamondon: You know, you and Kim

Arin Hancock: I thought you can talk

Kris plamondon: just did a song.

Arin Hancock: about the cover photo.

Kris plamondon: You and Michael should do a song now.

Rex: Yeah, well, I know Michael's sweet, I don't know him that well. know, we're just more like a... He knows who I am. I know who is. We've talked a little bit, a couple of times on occasion, but we don't really have that kind of relationship. But like I said, Kenny has been my friend for decades. so it just...

Kris plamondon: Yeah, that was just awesome. Yeah.

Rex: So yeah, so we are working on some more stuff now.

Arin Hancock: Sounds good. Let's get your thoughts on a few of the tracks then from Hammernail. We talked a little bit about living on the edge. What about

Rex: Yeah.

Arin Hancock: when the walls tumble down? Any thoughts on that one?

Rex: you

Kris plamondon: Wow, that is...

Arin Hancock: We're wondering if you remember these old songs.

Rex: Well, the thing that I can tell you about that song is I did the song and I was really pissed because Doug Van Pelt called me out immediately. said, oh, you stole that solo from Michael Schenker. I'm like, dang it.

Arin Hancock: you

Rex: How did you know? Because he's a Schenker fan, and I'm a Schenker fan. he's like, yeah, I did. I kind of did. So what are you going to do? Like I said, all of my influences are right here on my sleeve. It's hard to, you can't get away from who you are or what you are. These are all the sounds that were like, know, floating around in this big empty space.

Arin Hancock: Yeah, there's lots that ⁓ we didn't have so ⁓ well back there talking about ⁓ was the Stryper Reborn album which ⁓ originally was meant to be a sweet solo record. And when it came out, I thought, this just doesn't sound like Stryper at all. And it didn't because it wasn't meant to be Stryper record. And we're talking about that, that, you know, it would have all these other influences in it besides what the Stryper sound was. ⁓ When you listen to stuff, it's going to come out in music, I think, or your influences are going to come out. in your music. You can't

Kris plamondon: Yeah, that's right.

Arin Hancock: have it not.

Rex: Yeah, well, at this point, for most people these days, I'm like your grandpa. they're like, well, Gramps, doesn't know anything about, you know, what people

Kris plamondon: ⁓ Grandpa Rack.

Rex: like. I make it a point to, I talk to my students and I say, what is current on the radio? What groups do you like? I hear about groups and I check them out. I check out new music. I make it a point to search for new music. And when I hear, when there's like a name of a rock band that keeps coming up like two or three times, I see them on the internet. go, hmm, there's some buzz on these guys. So I go check them out. And I try to see what's out there and it's like, yeah, a lot of it is very good. It's all good. Nowadays, everything sounds perfect nowadays because, you know, all the vocals are tuned to within a micro millimeter of their life and all the drum beats are like mapped to the grid. And every, you know, all the guitar tones are just maximum distortion. Everything is like flawless. And that's you know, that's good and bad at the same time. That's just the way music is made these days. So it's always fresh when there's a group that is just, nah, we using no click tracks. The vocal, is what it is. If it's a little flat or sharp, whatever, we're not gonna tune it. You know, it's just an honest performance and I like that too. So when I work on my own record that I'm fixing to get started on here pretty soon, I intend to work willing and the creek don't rise. I intend to pursue that path of not using the click track, no pitch correction on the vocals, not going to go and fix every guitar note. What gets played is what gets played. So we'll have an honest record. And for some people, they'll go, well, it just doesn't sound as good as whatever because they're used to hearing flawless.

Arin Hancock: Right, yeah.

Rex: But some other people will say, you know, hopefully will say, wow, this sounds fresh like like the real deal. And that's what I'm hoping for.

Arin Hancock: Yeah. I hope the music scene is swings more that way to the, I guess the

Rex: Yes.

Arin Hancock: term would be organic or something, I don't know. All

Rex: Yeah, more organic.

Kris plamondon: So

Arin Hancock: we were talking about just songs in general from Hammer and Nail. What about Take It to the Limit? This actually I think is one of my favorites off this record.

Rex: I love that song, man. Yeah, I practiced that song. there's things, some of these songs like Take It To The Limit is one of these songs that like 40 years after the fact and I've still find little things. Man, if I could just try. There it is. If I could just dig out that little pinch harmonic on that note or something like that, know, I'm always working on that. I can tell you a story about that song.

Arin Hancock: Sure, go ahead.

Rex: I'll condense it because I know I get very long-winded. We were just pretty much at the end of the record. We already doing the mixes.

Kris plamondon: There we go.

Rex: that song, and I was afraid of that song because I knew what I needed to do was something fast and furious. know, something like that. And of course, it needed to be in key. None of that was in key. And this is the weirdest thing ever. Doug Oberkircher and myself were sitting at the console. And some guy walks in off the street and he goes, I'm looking for Joey Powers. You know, this is out in East Orange, New Jersey. It's like they all get these thick New York accents, East Coast accents, looking for Joey Powers. So Joey comes out and they start, they start like they're like, OK, so Doug and I had to stop while they're like talking. And this guy. He just starts going, ⁓ yeah, know, I used to manage Zach Wylde ⁓ and Joy was great. well, know, say hello to Rex. He's very good guitarist as well. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's okay, that's cool, but me and Zach were like this and Zach, wow, this and Zach, and my blood started boiling. ⁓ He just was whipping me into a rage. I, to this day, I believe God sent an angel, sent this guy in off the street just to inspire me because I didn't know what I was gonna do on that song. I said, Doug, remember that song, Take It To The Limit? I haven't done the lead on it yet. He goes, yeah, I remember that one. I said, put that one up. Let's work on that right now. And he said, okay. And he kind of knew where I was going. He could kind of see that I was getting mad. This guy, yeah, you're pretty good too, Rex. Yeah, I've heard of you. But you know, Zach Wylde you know, this and you know, I managed him and blah, blah, blah. And he kept going on and on. And I was like, yeah, well, get a load of this. ⁓ And then I was so furious and I was so angry and I just played, you know, I'm just going to let's let's just ⁓ stuff this up, you know, up your bodily parts where the sun doesn't shine. ⁓

Kris plamondon: Hahaha!

Arin Hancock: you

Rex: you know, how do you, let's see how you like this. And so I played the solo, one take, that was it. And there is a note at the end and I kind of, didn't quite get the bend because it was all improvised. I wasn't quite sure where I was going, but played it in one take and then, and then he walked up. He disappeared. He was just like, I played it. I turned around and was like, yeah, what do you think of that? You know, daggers. Take

Arin Hancock: Thank

Rex: that. And he disappeared. Never heard from him again. Later on, was like, Joey, who is that guy? He I don't know, man. That's some guy I met like a long time ago and never heard from him. And just years go by and then he just happens to walk in the door like today. Like, okay, well, that was a God thing.

Arin Hancock: You never know, it could have been.

Kris plamondon: Yeah. Wow.

Rex: I just have always taken it that way because it gave me the inspiration that I needed at the time. You know, can

Arin Hancock: Right.

Rex: produce, you know, where do solos come from? Maybe from moments of extreme joy or maybe from extreme anger. Both are useful in content.

Arin Hancock: There you go. I felt like that, you know, many times you had a bad day, you're angry, you're frustrated. I want to go home and bang with some thrash metal song or something like that, you know.

Rex: Yeah, so that's what happened on that song.

Arin Hancock: Good. ⁓ What about Walk With Me? Was that another ⁓ Scott

Kris plamondon: Yes, that's awesome.

Arin Hancock: Wenzel?

Rex: No? That was a, I think that was just a full collaboration between myself and Scotty.

Arin Hancock: Okay.

Rex: Because I remember I had done those chords. I thought of it on the guitar but I was thinking of the keyboard the whole time.

Arin Hancock: Yeah, again, think that's

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Arin Hancock: another one that the keyboard was brought in on.

Rex: So we hired a very,

Arin Hancock: one that the keyboard was brought in on.

Rex: So we hired a very, very good, Joey knew a keyboard player who came in and he was great, really good. George, but I forgot his last name. But he was a really, really good keyboard player. And then, no. No.

Kris plamondon: And it was only a six song album, right?

Arin Hancock: No, no, those are full ten zones.

Kris plamondon: I only got six. One, two, three, four, five.

Rex: Well, I think we were thinking of, yeah, we had an EP and this was Gavin's idea and... Gavin said, let's do an EP, two new songs. Okay, great. So he sold it to me as a single. And there's this studio in East Orange, New Jersey. You try it out. If you like the studio, then you can record your upcoming album, which turned out to be Hammer and Nail. We did these two songs and then... pure metal they released it white cross what do they call it the 898 EP

Kris plamondon: Something like that, yes, yes.

Rex: was furious. was ⁓ Calvin you, you sly dog. How could you do this? They put, they said, it's ⁓

Arin Hancock: It was an EP.

Rex: four-song EP because two new songs plus two ⁓ songs from the first album. ⁓ They weren't remixed, no nothing, no improvements or anything, just a way to force you to pay, you know, like nine bucks for two new songs. ⁓ And furthermore, was, the whole thing was predicated. on that Metallica thing, the 698 EP. And I'm like, dare you? know, it's like at least Metallica gave you an actual like new songs or previously unreleased songs, whatever it was. I actually never bought a copy of that Metallica thing, but I had seen it, you know, in the record.

Arin Hancock: Yeah, yeah, no, I think the name of it, this one was called Love on the Line EP came out, Right, I see. Yeah, and I was, I'm not big on that.

Rex: the 890 ADP that was the tag yeah and I was like oh it's like it's like it's like it's like okay

Arin Hancock: Yeah, and I was, I'm not big on that.

Rex: I'm thinking okay you greedy bastards at the record company you have put this out and now I'm the one who's gonna have to answer to every kid at every show why did you do this like well I I didn't do that it's at the record company did that to you and I apologize profusely but

Arin Hancock: Well, record companies would do that too with Greatest Hits, release the Greatest Hits, and then

Rex: Hmph.

Arin Hancock: throw, the band would throw two new songs on there knowing the fans got to buy the Greatest Hits. We've already got all the songs on there, but now we got to have these two new ones as well.

Rex: Well that came later with Starsong. And by then I was starting to learn things like how to speak truth to power. As I said earlier, I think most of the people who work for record companies these days are stupid people. I just don't respect them because they make these horribly stupid business decisions that just, yeah, it shows how greedy you are, but you just do things that you like. Why do you shoot yourself in the left foot all the time? yeah, so Star Song and Jeff Moultz said, oh yeah, we're gonna do a greatest hits on you. And I launched it right away. said, you know, people hate greatest hits. Why do you gotta buy a whole new album just to get like one or two new songs?

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Rex: You're stealing money from people. He said, no, you're wrong. And he was actually right. He was correct. So you're wrong, Rex, because they had a Petra album. So we did their studio albums, but their greatest hits albums by far completely outsell any of the studio albums. And people liked greatest hits. If they didn't like them, they wouldn't buy them.

Kris plamondon: That's right, exactly, yeah.

Rex: You know like so here's the thing I worked for the post office for a little while and during times of no money they had this this trashy The local neighborhood flyer that comes from the grocery store You know you probably get them in the mail and I said to the postmaster, why do you put this trash up? Is it because they pay us?

Arin Hancock: Yeah.

Rex: We're making money to put that up. So why are

Kris plamondon: Yep.

Rex: they holding on? It's garbage. said, no, they wouldn't put them out. They wouldn't spend the money if people weren't responding to the ads.

Arin Hancock: Yeah, exactly.

Rex: Like, greatest hits albums are the same way. Well, if people like it, they're buying it.

Kris plamondon: that's right

Arin Hancock: well.

Rex: People vote with their pocketbook, you know. If they don't like it, if you put out a grade that sits and nobody buys it, then you start to think, well, maybe that wasn't such a great idea. But it turns out that people do like it.

Arin Hancock: Well, back to Hammer and Nail and then we talk about actually one

Rex: Yeah, sure.

Arin Hancock: of my favorite old time songs actually, Because of Jesus. know, it's

Rex: Yes.

Arin Hancock: a great riff, simple, but I

Kris plamondon: That's a great song.

Arin Hancock: think it was effective riff.

Rex: Yeah, I love that

Kris plamondon: Yeah, that's a cool song.

Rex: one. Well, since David Roberts has joined the band as our new vocalist, so we have the one album that we've done with Dave, but every... every time we have shows coming up, we have a discussion about, you know, Dave, we want you to be the singer. We're not going to make this like, who do you like, David Lee Roth or Shami Hager? We're not going to do that. It's like we want you to sing the whole catalog. And he's totally on board with that. He's like, yes, you know, I understand that this band has a legacy and a responsibility to your fans to to play the songs that they grew up on. says, I totally respect that. So we said, well, let's do, because of Jesus, let's add that back into the setlist. And so we did, and we had great fun with that one. I love that song.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, that's my favorite dwell.

Rex: Not a big thing to say about it. I like the words and I like the way Scotty did it. And I think in the beginning on the studio version, know, Scotty does this little thing. goes, there's this little vocalization at the very beginning of the song. Because I had said to Doug, the engineer, you know, I get on the talkback mic and go, yeah, Scotty, just, you know, sing along. and just sort of warm up your voice and get ready to go. And then we'll play the song through from top to bottom one time and then we'll come back and we'll start recording like for real. But we're not recording any of this. He says, okay, got it. And then I turned the mic off and I go, Doug, okay, so hit record and everything that he does. So I did, when he

Arin Hancock: record.

Kris plamondon: Ha ha.

Rex: thinks... that he's not recording, Scotty,

Kris plamondon: Right?

Rex: he's a lot, he feels a lot more freedom to try things, to improvise a little bit. And so that was one of the things. So he improvised that little thing in the beginning, like, oh, okay, I like that, you know, as I start making notes. So I went through the whole take, oh, I like this, I like this. So we got about half the song when he thought he was just warming up.

Arin Hancock: go back and actually listen for that now.

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Rex: So, but then, know, once the cat is out of the bag, once you do that one time, then he knows. Actually, well, every time he says, we're just warming up, you know, he's probably recording. So, it's all on a hot mic after that.

Arin Hancock: Yeah. Yeah, you can only do that trick once.

Rex: Yeah.

Arin Hancock: When the clock strikes. Any

Rex: Remember the clock straight, huh.

Arin Hancock: thoughts on that one?

Rex: Hmm. you

Arin Hancock: something

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Arin Hancock: like that yeah I

Rex: Yeah,

Arin Hancock: it's been a while since I that one

Rex: that one well we played it live for a couple years and we even had a very crude click track that we made and we put it on a cassette tape and All the clocks in the breakdown part at the bridge before the guitar solo

Arin Hancock: Yeah, yeah.

Rex: So we tried to do that. We recorded all that onto a cassette tape so we could bring that in live. It worked about 60 % of the time and about 40 % of the time we missed the click at the beginning. So we'd come in at the wrong point. So we were like, we'll come back to that song and then we never did.

Arin Hancock: All right. We've got a couple more here to run through. Resist him.

Rex: Resist Him. Yeah. So there was a grandmother in Florida. She goes, thought, boy, know, we're in trouble now. I saw this blue-haired old lady, you know, coming towards us. And she said she's going to yell at us. You can yell at us. You guys are too loud. You know, this stuff doesn't worship Jesus. I was waiting for a lecture. She goes, oh, I just love that song, Resist Him. Like such a great song. ⁓ and ⁓ so ⁓ i was i was only wrapped up in the little things like ⁓ yeah let me do this little ⁓ double double rhythm thing there because that's what ⁓ because that's what

Kris plamondon: You have some really cool riffs.

Rex: Jake-E-Lee would have done ⁓ You know, so that's the way Jake E Lee would do it. So I got to do that. You know, I'm thinking about little things like that and his grandmother, you know, she's like, oh, I love that song, Resist Him You know, it's like I've played that for the youth group a hundred times. Oh, okay, cool. So it's like, it's good. The song is connecting with people. And I did my little Jake E Lee Lee riff there. So everybody's happy. It's a win-win.

Arin Hancock: Yeah. No, I thought it was good. There you go. Yeah.

Rex: I wish I would have had my guitar tone that I have now. I'm sure it sounds great even just coming through your speaker, but it's such a good guitar sound. Back then, it's like, yeah, the guitar sound. It took a long time to get the tones to work. And they still don't work the way they're supposed to, but I keep working on it.

Kris plamondon: When you do the guitar solo work, is it a one shot or do you do a couple takes of it?

Rex: It always starts with the mental thinking. yeah, I'm gonna knock this down in one or two takes and then I'm there for like three days Working through it, you know if I piece if I get this riff and then I go into this riff and so it ends up being Like I end up over producing myself Back when digital recording became a thing and we started making music on the computer

Kris plamondon: Yeah.

Rex: and I realized that my god I can do unlimited takes so I would stack up like 50 different takes of the guitar solo. No problem I'll go through and I'll pick out the best parts of each one. It would take two months ⁓ to edit like an eight bar guitar solo. I just, so

Kris plamondon: Wow.

Rex: you can't, I realized you can't do that. It doesn't work. It's not, that's not real. It's like, and you're not, and the end result that you're getting, ⁓ well it should be like two months of work better, right? Like no it's just different. So whatever you can do in like a two hour session is fine.

Arin Hancock: Couple songs to finish up here, Living in a Lost World. Any thoughts on that?

Rex: No, I just remember that Mark Hettle wrote some of the words on that. That was cool. Participation

Arin Hancock: Right?

Rex: all the way around.

Arin Hancock: Then that brings us to the last one here, Top the World. actually, as I was listening that, did you do the solo with a slide for that one? That's what I thought. That's what it sounded like.

Rex: Yeah, I did. Yeah. So there's been some of the festivals lately. People have been having this thing. Can you play acoustically? Can you do an acoustic set? Like we want you to play on the main stage and then we want you to go in the side tent and play an acoustic set. So we've been doing top of the world as an acoustic. And it's worked out so well.

Arin Hancock: Okay.

Kris plamondon: That would be cool. That would be something.

Rex: And then we realized that, you could take any song from the catalog and just do it acoustically and it'll be really different. Because of Jesus, that song, we've also done that one acoustically as well.

Arin Hancock: That'd be interesting.

Rex: And then of course, in the kingdom, you know, because that's your first thought is, well, what songs have you got that that are acoustically based. But then when you realize, no, no, your whole, your entire catalog is fair game. And it'll be really different, but it's really fun to try it out and see how it goes.

Arin Hancock: Right? Yeah, no, it's all good. And definitely great. I know from Hammer and Nail I'd say my top three favorites. We mentioned Because of Jesus, definitely one of my favorites, probably my favorite White Cross all time tune. Top of the World, think is another great one, Stands Out, along with Take It to the Limit.

Kris plamondon: Yeah, that's a good song

Rex: Yeah, yeah, those are all great songs, and I agree.

Kris plamondon: So, Rex, out of that album, which songs were popular in the radio network there in the States? Do remember?

Rex: I don't remember.

Kris plamondon: Okay. I know Take It To The Limit was pretty popular here in Canada.

Rex: Walk with me is really popular in Central America. We've played Central America quite a bit between Mexico and

Kris plamondon: Yeah, I saw that on YouTube. Wow, you guys rock there.

Rex: in as far as Brazil and they love it they love that stuff down there and they love those power villains so I am I am all about ⁓ whatever ⁓ song connects to somebody is that when you write when you write a song ⁓ you just have to like follow through on the idea ⁓ and you're halfway through the song you think gee maybe our audience isn't going to like this song or something

Kris plamondon: Mm-hmm.

Rex: that's the thought you just have to push that aside no this is let's just pursue this idea and finish the song every song that you write may or may not make it to the final cut of the album final version of the album but do each song because it's like well if it's my personal favorite or if it's not my personal favorite If it speaks, it's going to speak to somebody. indeed, over the years, we've gotten everything from snail mail back in the day to emails and comments and personal messages. People, this song really changed my life. And you never know. So.

Kris plamondon: Are there songs that you've written now that you look back and say, maybe I want to reintroduce it?

Rex: Yeah, we talked about that. I had a lot of fun with the bootleg version of it in the kingdom. So,

Arin Hancock: right.

Rex: you know, we might, you know, we might, we've talked about doing some like new recordings of old songs. I don't know. Yeah, it could be

Kris plamondon: there.

Rex: interesting. I know.

Arin Hancock: Thanks for coming out. Thanks for your time. was great talking to you

Rex: Absolutely.

Arin Hancock: again, Rex.

Kris plamondon: Love the guitar solos. Thank you.

Rex: You're welcome. I have enjoyed sharing some of these like little quirky things that happened in the studio along the way and stuff, you know, it was fun.

Kris plamondon: Yes, thank you. I

Arin Hancock: Yeah, look.

Kris plamondon: thank our audience for a joy that inner look and what happens in a studio.

Rex: Let's do it again in six or 12 months and let's check in again. All right, thank you guys. All

Kris plamondon: See you there, stay safe

Rex: All

Kris plamondon: man.

Rex: right, we'll see you. Bye-bye.